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June 22, 2018, 06:22:10 AM
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Poll
Question: Should you be able to chasecam enemy players?
Yes. - 8 (33.3%)
No. - 3 (12.5%)
It's fine in pubs, but not competitive matches. - 13 (54.2%)
Total Voters: 24

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Author Topic: Thoughts on spectating enemy players while dead?  (Read 1092 times)
jitspoe
Administrator
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Posts: 18557

« on: February 16, 2018, 10:21:09 PM »

Most competitive shooters don't allow you to spectate enemy team members and recon their location.  I've had reports that some new players are turned off by the fact that you can do it in Paintball2 and that it limits strategies/tactics.

It's also been a part of the game for a long time, and many players are attached to it.  Last time I tried to push to remove it, the community didn't want to.

Where do you guys stand on this topic now?  Do you think it's healthy for the game to be able to call out locations of enemies that would otherwise be in unknown locations?
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JeongWa
68 Carbine

Posts: 448

« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2018, 05:22:10 AM »

Before voting too quickly, if you did not play competitive-wise in the past years or did not play the game at all recently then it would be great abstaining yourself from voting for the sake of the game. You would be impacting for something you do not play anymore, something you dont really know the meta for, play styles has changed, map pools changed ect..

A quick reminder of how impacting the chase-cam is into matches :

The chase-came as it is right now, allows you to recons enemy players as soon as you are eliminated. It is a pretty valuable information that is even better than having a 4th players if done correctly. Its the difference between a good teamate and a bad one.

There are fews downsides to that.

- The first downside is for the aggressiveness :

Killing the first enemy is not really rewarding since you'll have to play now in consequences of being reconned the rest of the round. It is a really strong restriction for outplays potential and directly influencing the aggressiveness into matches.

You have to somehow bypass that most of the time to win a round. The only working combination that players can use to counter that is baiting. Manipulating the opponents to move according to your moves.

Getting a number advantage -> baiting -> grabbing.
 
If you dont do that second part, it will be a bloodbath. You'll end up rushing into someone knowing your exact position, no need to guess whats happening next.
Some teams, instead of dealing with it ( because yeah thats really restricting) bypass that. How ?  By picking maps that are really hard to defend. (Carpathian for ex.)


- The second downside is RECONS dictate the pace of the game :

Recons are way to powerful on most of the maps. It is not adapted at all with the defensive play style of teams those past years.

Skill wise speaking, if you are the one being 1v3 you SHOULD BE the one focusing on your game senses because you are the one having a disadvantage. But thats not how paintball works. You have the exact location of your enemies and they dont. Have you ever noticed how easy it is to get the first kill when you are in a 1v3 situation ? Yes, you are the one having an advantage being 1v3, totally make sense right.

- Third and last :

Let the players make their own descisions, give more space for outplays, reward aggressiveness instead of rewarding defensive play style. Let other features in the game having an impact on the game. (Im pretty sure smokes grenades is a feature people want to be reworked, but how would those be impactful with recons ? Great you obstructed the vision for a whole path of the map, but you are still being reconned. No hiding in smokes)

Is this what the game wants ? Features being useful only on the first seconds of the rounds until first blood ?

And few last words,

Make sure to think of the good and the downsides before voting.

The futur of the game is in this update. Make sure to express your opinion before its done if you have been playing recently.

Edit:

If i can suggest something. Leave the matching scene having a test period if the votes are favorables. So they can actually instead of thinking give direct feedback.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 05:49:00 AM by JeongWa » Logged
pvtjimmy
Committee Member
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Posts: 2097

« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2018, 09:44:25 AM »

I have not played in a while, but I think the current system is not the worst. Many of the - at least older/classic maps such as castle1 and renoir - do not have too many bottleneck points. Having no clue where the enemy is might lead to totally different game, namely a more cat and mouse style of play where movement speed is getting more and more important. On the other hand this will of course also increase the level of skill required to play competitively. Therefore I am not saying changing this system is better or worse, it might just be different.

This post was just to throw up some thoughts. Since I have no time to play actively anymore, I will not vote.
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T3RR0R15T
Map Committee
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Posts: 2589

« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2018, 11:08:50 AM »

It's fine in pubs and we have the setting to enable it for matches. If you want, i can change it at our server.
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Ranger
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Posts: 197

« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2018, 11:53:51 AM »

When I was active in team matches I offen got to conclusion that I rather play without the possibility of to be exposed to my enemy by his dead teammate. But it cannot be removed totally unless dead players would have black screen and that would be boring.. My vote is "Yes"
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JeongWa
68 Carbine

Posts: 448

« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2018, 12:07:35 PM »

What jitspoe stated was about enemy players and not your allies so you should still be able to chase your allies when dead.
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Zenit
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Posts: 124

« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2018, 12:22:50 PM »

Jeongwa made good points. I would also recommend to give it a period to try it out, since it is a huge change.
So far I think it would make a huge difference gameplay-wise and raise the required skillcaps and learning-curves even more. Maybe some older top tier teams get attracted again, since they might not be able to keep up anymore.
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JeongWa
68 Carbine

Posts: 448

« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2018, 07:09:10 PM »

Had a chatting with T3RROR1ST and we came to a conclusion that we can do it right now without the game being officially changed. This wont impact anything else, observer would still be able to chase you if you spec'd them ect.

In order to do that, you simply need to create an account on OTB forums: - https://www.otb-server.de/wbblite/register.php?sid=623f11da17c34863f227512e49d889ea

There will probably be a confirmation link sent to you. Im not sure about that since T3RROR1ST made me bypass that since he can manage the website.

Once you created and confirmed your account, just go on the OTB leaser : - https://www.otb-server.de

Log in from the bottom of this page, Click on edit settings from the bottom of this page again and from there change the chasecameonly setting from disable to enabled.

(The edit settings page will remember any change you make and re-use it the next time you lease a server, pretty useful, also works with passwords)

Looking at the past years with servers issues concerning the ball_speed, OTB and Arctic servers have now the same ballspeed.

So towards the remaining active clans & players, if you want to make your own opinion about this topic, you can already Wink

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lukip
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Posts: 209

« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2018, 03:17:56 AM »

you could add an on/off setting on matching servers so people can choose on their own if they want to enable it for the match or not.
disabling it completely would be a mess. as pvtjimmy already said, on maps like c1 it would lead to a totally different game, even for good players.
i dont think people would turn chasecam off at all, not in matches  and on public servers in 90% of the time no one gives recon anyways
also, what are you gonna do if you die on pub? having blackscreen for 30sec till you revive again? people gonna leave, especially new ones who usually die alot at the beginning.
maybe adding something like a jail map as you can find it on nhb would help that, but you should be able to add it on every map then, i dont know if this is technicallly possible without changing the whole game tho.

edit: maybe i would change my mind if paintball had a decent sound quality in therms of localizing enemys.
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Ranger
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Posts: 197

« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2018, 06:34:09 AM »

This poll wont be representative. Most competitive shooters want to adapt the game to their standard and that will push out the new potential players.
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JeongWa
68 Carbine

Posts: 448

« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2018, 06:41:58 AM »

To lukii:

I dont think you really got what jimmy said tho. He said the gameplay on bigger maps would be different and that movements will have a higher impact. There is less choke points on bigger map but that is what make it more valuable to then control the middle parts and the choke points overal on maps.

About the blackscreen you mentioned, not sure where did you get that from but if you die you are then being redirected on one of your teamates. As for en exemple to what to do in that time, you could focus on their positioning and give them tips : " hey your teamate is watching that , you can watch that instead of watching together the same path " .

So there wont be any blackscreen weither you play on a public server or in a matching server.

Also, it most likely wont affect public servers as you can see in the poll itself no one is voting a straight " no " .

You have good point tho, i think for paintball to have such a change this is something that needs to be tested.
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Malware
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Posts: 110

« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2018, 08:35:29 AM »

What about the observers? Will they be able to see anyone and what if someone from opponent team is in observers?
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Zenit
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Posts: 124

« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2018, 08:52:11 AM »

What about the observers? Will they be able to see anyone and what if someone from opponent team is in observers?

There won't be any difference to as it is right now. Observers would still need specinvite from those, who are playing, as long as "observerblackout" is enabled, which is usually the case on matchservers. So this would have no impact for them at all.
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JeongWa
68 Carbine

Posts: 448

« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2018, 08:56:15 AM »

Zenits is correct.

In addition to otb servers, arctic servers also have NOW the option to disable or enable the chasecamonly. This option is right under the password you want to set.

Yes you can now decide of a password for arctic servers, passwords are not longer automated, only admin logins will be automated for security purposes and those are now easy to remember.  No more capslocks neither random numbers.

You can see it by yourself there: - http://ic3y.de/rent.php
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idias
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Posts: 605

« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2018, 01:59:22 PM »

Gladly zenit and Jeongwa already said pretty much everything there is to say.
Despite recon being one of the "fundamentals" of private matches in this game since I started, I'd have to say it carries too much weight, therefore...
ยป "It's fine in pubs, but not competitive matches."

But that's just me... I'm lazy and I've always hated either spamming LOCs or just monotonically saying "mid, main, gap, Y, gap, low, speeding, 2, 2, 2, capped... nice try" (F*** Xico.) I can't make it sound fun even with a large container of helium beside me.

If community backlash is an issue, just keep it as a server option when leasing and everyone should be pleased(?).

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't guntemp also a similar discussion to this and with a similar solution?
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MyeRs
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Posts: 1602

« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2018, 12:24:41 AM »

Okay, so you can't just "remove spectate" or not remove it as a concept, without looking at more... I do agree RECON is not something used in any competitive game mode - and it is a very big advantage (however... voice chat is used universally in all games nowadays... so the argument of typing vs voice is irrelevant). Listen to pro CSGO/LoL comms. Now, the argument that it carries too much weight is valid - it does. But DP also has 0 strategy, so RECON is literally the only strategy in this game. So the arguments of "lazy2recon" are silly, because competitive games nowadays have 100x more said in comms then DP ever did.

1) The maps were built with spectating in mind. In order to remove spectate, we need a new set of maps.

2) Building off #1 - games don't have RECON cause they only have 1-5 maps. These maps are made to be balanced and proper - Official maps. So, strategy is created, and RECON is no longer a necessity. When you can play a random map you've never heard of, have 100's of maps played, you need RECON.

3) Gun-Temp -- Want to remove RECON, Guntemp needs to be added back. This adds for strategy to be shifted from post-death to pre-death, as campers are disadvantaged.

4) FOOTSTEP SOUNDS - This is also a necessity. No RECON in other games because you can hear people in proximity, to be able to have a form of reliable RECON. Without sounds you're literally just on a wild guessing game.

5) Revives should not be a thing. FPS games don't usually have revives. It doesn't really make sense to have IMO. It adds a "strategic" element, sure, but thats BECAUSE of Recon. If there's no recon, revive caps are the easiest thing ever. Without RECON, there should be no reviving in a match.

6) While we're at trying to change the game for the "competitive" nature - some other points: our current setup for matching is awful. Like... it is random, unofficial, and awkward for new players to understand. Matches in DP have the potential to last 30 minutes to 2 hours... Most games are 15-60 mins. It should be 1 single map, or 2 maps and combined total points win.

7) OFFICIAL maps should automatically update to the DPLOGIN clan team page (and be played on official servers) -- Everything else is pubs/scrims, scrims being more or less practice.

Cool If you're trying to grow the game (goodluck lol) then I'm not so sure CTF is the best mode. Looking at other games, Siege is probably the best, but our maps suck for that.

---------

Now, if this is a singular change, without anything else, just removing spectating enemy while dead - then I think it is not worthwhile. It alone does not add anything. If you're trying to grow the game, grow competitive scene and all that ambitious things that aren't even possible with the current aesthetics of the game, then the above things would help.

Also, don't reply to me, if you like/dislike points cool, use them to work on the game if thats your goal, but I only check in on here maybe once ever 6 months, so likely will not see this thread again.
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JeongWa
68 Carbine

Posts: 448

« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2018, 11:37:06 AM »

There was few matches made there & there to test the chasecamonly, and it really was a sensation of freedom compared to what it is now.
 
An interesting topic and i personally believe that this does ruins the matches for all the arguments that i've enunciate in my first post,
but looking at the amount of people voting you can clearly see that opinions are mixed and that there is barely any concerned players left.

So this probably wont be changed anyways.
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